Discussing Ruby ecosystem and community with a marketing professional from JetBrains, Artem Sarkisov

Discussing Ruby ecosystem and community with a marketing professional from JetBrains, Artem Sarkisov



right hello everyone my name is Andrea kofta from our concei and today I'm in the beautiful San Petersburg Russia and I mean the jetbrains office sitting here with Artem so could you introduce yourself sure hi my name is Artem circus of I'm a product marketing manager for jet prints Ruby mine I live in st. Petersburg and I'm a marketer man on that ground yeah yeah so we have just been both of us were at the Sun Petersburg Ruby conference that's why we are here energy um played the role of a host really well good job thank you and and the whole conference was actually in this venue in JetBrains venue where you just moved to this venue right that's yeah that actually we moved here maybe six months ago anyway in the beginning of maybe eight months ago in the beginning of 2019 mm-hmm yeah and previously worked in a smaller office and now it's it's much bigger this one is bigger it it is it can have up to a thousand people now I guess reference has become bigger and it's getting bigger and bigger yeah yeah that's from my perspective this is amazing to hear you know that company which produces code editors you know it's a thousand people help yeah it's huge people say that sometimes yes but we have a lot of products actually and our biggest ones are developed for Java that's IntelliJ IDEA also huge one for PHP which be storing webstorm for javascript and actually for almost every popular programming language if there is a programming language that is popular and used in production most widely we have a tool for that right so just a disclaimer for those of you who are watching this and not know me I'm a big fan of Ruby mine which is a JetBrains product and I was using IntelliJ when I was a Java developer back in 2000 so that's where my story which other brain started and then I switched to Ruby and at the beginning I was using like and a textmate was the thing in Ruby in the beginning but once I me and the our conceit company once we started working on bigger Ruby projects more of us switch to Ruby man and for me it was like a great great feeling overall so I've had that period of time where I was like switching every year between vim and between Ruby mine but now over the last few years it's almost exclusively a Ruby mine and for for bigger projects I just find it much much better than the simple editors yeah although I did try like at home and sublime and I didn't try vs code but still whenever I ask people okay how do you do this envious code it seems like Ruby mine really has the advanced way of navigation through the code which is very hard to repeat in the central editors yeah yeah I understand thank you for using Ruby mine of course and actually I keep an eye on all this on all these editors when I can and I tried myself well it's part of my job to see which editor has what and I've tried and I tried sublime and vs cold and all of all of these things that are still popular and I would say that all sublime Adam and V s cult are quite popular right now and reline is I would say that Ruby mine is pretty popular as well and we were at robic idea about what was it like it 2 months ago maybe and they had had some booths some sponsors had this thing running which tool do you use and I was surprised that I mean I I know Ruby mine is popular enough but I didn't know we would have so much people it's really nice to know that people pay for not only pay for the chaplains product but they for our product in a community that considers that's really how do I put it in a community that prefers normally editor's in a community where there's any group where there's this model like you don't need an ID and and it's really cool it's it's it's quite tough and it's hard to develop a tool for such a community and make marketing things such a community but somehow we managed but already mine is alt it's I mean it's it's been around for 10 years now mm-hmm I can imagine the challenges I know the Ruby community very well I started living in this community in 2004 so I was watching all the phases we went through and there's definitely some spirit of trying to be as open source as possible or using free tools relying on simple simple tools so I can I can imagine it's a difficult challenge for you to compete with I don't even so it's so cool and so some people are doing really awesome stuff just by using just what you think them so I can imagine this is not easy for you on the other hand Ruby mine like from my perspective has taught those advanced refactoring techniques obviously we are in the context of a dynamic language that we can never be really really sure that everything works but I think Ruby Devine is doing really good work if this code analysis with static code analysis and I know there's some runtime code analysis you are gathering some data about the code and know this requires you know a team of people actually working on just Ruby mine for for a long period of time so can you tell more about like what how big is a team sure we currently have 13 people working for Ruby – a prince and about four or five working here in st. Petersburg and others work in Marik and Moscow well yeah and the most of us are Java developers because Ruby mine is based on IntelliJ IDEA so we called a ruby tool in Java yeah that's the end yeah that's the funny part because the Ruby community was all it started as the kind of I don't know opposition this in Java I think it now it's made sure in the Ruby community I don't see their hate much but that's yeah that's an interesting perspective okay that's really interesting actually Ruby mine started as a plugin yeah and then it became a standalone product and yeah with the team with its own team so anyway we also have a quality sure incident on our team and a technical writer because it's a complex tool and yeah there's enough there should be a lot of tutorials and tox content is important content is king they say right in marketing these days and and myself I might draw the community managers so I mostly yeah try to analyze the market get feedback from the customers and see I also do partly I do product management and I mean I take all the requirements from the market and try to converse it into convert it into a product development plan but of course I did not do this alone we have a team leader who's both not only he's leading the developers okay and but he's also leading well the team all together and he's also coding is a coder in Java a Java programmer – so he's like a coach playing coach anyway so and he does product management as well and we also have a of course a technical support specialist mm-hmm yeah so that's about the team and yeah Ruby mine is really of course Ruby mine I consider Ruby mine a very advanced product and it is and probably in terms of the integrated development environment I truly believe that it's the best because of all the things work out of the box you man should call inside and code navigation these are the most important features that we have the ability to go to the definition of many yeah yeah entity like a method or a class or whatever finding usages and that kind of stuff that all works out of the box the ability to go to any gem that you use in your product in your project occasion that's really huge that's really huge and luckily in my opinion other free tools are not there yet and as I said I keep an eye on them and I tried vs code they have cool plugins like solar graphs some other plugins they are free this is amazing this is great I'm an economist by my graph background I've never seen any other sphere where people would share so much for free that's why I tea and especially Ruby community this is amazing this is economically incorrect right yeah in terms of classic of classic economics this is this is crazy the other candy I agree this is crazy I have this also I'm a programmer but I also had this enterpreneur part of me uh-huh so I see your perspective that this is crazy like I kind of a brilliant if you look at some of the open source projects which I'm supporting and we also the host open source project but but it's really risky because at some point some of the leaders day they burn out they get really disappointed that they are not paid and they're trying many different donations actions yeah but they are never really happy and it's the whole business model which doesn't exist it's like very challenging for open source projects so I'm somewhere in between like I really like appreciate what JetBrains does with Rubin mind even though it's a paid product but I really understand that if you have 13 people for 14 people working here ya know it's its job right you have to generate and so on so and with open source projects is actually very hard to to get monetization around as I can see we are working on the rails even store this is our open source 14 now that one there like I estimate that there is like more than 100 production projects somewhere using that I've recently learned there's like a romanian hospitals using release even store for collecting the data or from medical devices so i was a really cool thing and but because race even story is supported by our can see and people are paid to work on reddit even store we can build a business model around so we are not expecting people to pay for receive and store we're just now giving marketing through that we get exposure we get you know people know that know as they see how careful we are with the problem with the code quality so that's our way of bringing attention and then trying to convert it maybe to our clients maybe – we are selling programming ebooks for programmers or on write classes for programs for Ruby programmers so we can build the business model around it so still open source but we can actually earn money on that yeah but things like the code editors they seem to be very often like locking the monetization part so mm-hmm so this is really really interesting how how it works from the yeah yes and yeah the things you mentioned about the ebooks and things that you can do for free in order to gain your audience and to get more exposure that's important that's a very good practice of course in terms of marketing but it's it's long term yeah it's very long term yeah and but it's really cool actually when I love companies and a lot of people who do that because for me as a marketer maybe yeah maybe that's just because I'm a marketer that's why I think this way but I think when I see someone doing something for free I do understand it probably there's there is a long term strategy but this also because of this I understand that they have real plans they're not planning to go anywhere this is very important for me as a marketer because there there's there is a ton of different products they all call themselves amazing they started yesterday and they call today they call them sounds amazing yeah and because they have a lot of investments and I t's really has become huge lately and it bothers me a little bit but when I see marketing strategies when people are doing something for free I understand that's that's long term and they're not planning to go anywhere they're just trying to develop that's very important yeah you think your perspective the marketing perspective that's a beginning of the funnel right yes it's also great maybe we can go in this direction with this conversation because you know the Ruby community very well you know more you know with more from the numbers perspective some trends perspective poverty you're you're not technically you're not coding right I do I do call just a little bit for distance because yeah I also do release management for Ruby mine and I write content okay for the Lea we add new things major things three times a year we have three major releases and we add new features yeah we have an argument around that because I think we should spend more time on fixing bugs hey I'm a manager that's that's always a problem and but we still need some features to be supported like rails six for instance or when there's a new version of Ruby a new version of rails like the latest things like action mailbox action text you have to be I have to be inside these things wait just a little bit just to understand how this works so yeah I I dunno rails a little bit and a little bit of Ruby and I do call for instance recently I have to learn how to profile applications I mean I cannot do nothing better than a blog right but but still I have to learn how to profile applications because we have a feature a profiler yeah I need to try it more like I was I was just experimenting with we've had to improve performance of our applications in some parts I think it's something that caught my interest at the profile part was well I spent two days trying to understand what this is and how this works but now I have a somewhat decent blog post it's yeah so I can assure link so just going back to this perspective because it's very unique and I really want you to share more details like using Europe vocabulary from economical background from marketing background how would you describe the Ruby community you know some market we don't like to see this as a market yeah but this is a market that is so what are you what are your insights here okay so according to our estimations we have a research department inside share brains and we also use with the research ourselves and we also use the external data from Stack Overflow and of course other open sources we would say that there is around three by now we think there is around 300,000 of professional Ruby / rails developers 300,000 and according to our estimations altogether there is over a million proper minds who use Ruby I feel proud kind of my estimates as well but very rough and probably without such a personal professional support that you've got we have some data yeah you have some data but that was like my graph estimates really good to confirm that Thanks sure no problem and yeah as for the tools are currently currently the most popular ones are well according to our data again that's V s code it's become more popular in a couple of years does the number one right now you think according to some of our estimations yes sir yes I'm surprised yeah it's become big and it's becoming in JavaScript and once again according to our estimation Ruby mine is quite huge it's probably the second or third place okay yeah and but still happen and sublime are quite popular as well yeah that's another data that I have also it's very important that in Japan for instance that's very important market for us as well mm-hm and I also see that there is a gap between the Japanese community unfortunately and for instance the US will be community there is also a gap between the US community and the European one yeah a little bit a little bit different people different just a little bit they know each other of course but it's like three different communities that's the way I see it because I travel a lot I travel conferences railsconf Ruby cakey well same theory we can't unfortunately didn't participate in rostov but my colleagues were there and twice and this year too and so yeah it feels now I feel like we have we are inside this European community and the Japanese one is a little bit outside and why I tell you this is that once I do this research this questionnaire II sometimes when I go to the conference's and I work at the rubymine booth and according to my data it was twenty seventeen I think I asked this question to all the people who came by our booth what tool do you use for Ruby in rails development and I think they were like 60 or 80 people who answered to the two years ago 50 percent of them told me they answered that they used whim so it's like completely different data from what I got the same year at the US conference at railsconf at that time two years ago yeah it was abdomen was number one so yeah there was like over a hundred people Hotel told me that okay it's it's different and different it's interesting and it's amazing it shows that the market is not cannot be considered like in you can't use just digits to analyze the market to make any conclusions about it because you have to be very more specific about the regions in Japan they use one thing the most popular one and in the u.s. it's a little bit different maybe because there are many startups many companies super interesting yeah in Europe it's a third thing there's also Emacs I know at least two people using that one of them is positive right and a huge proponent and there's FD grim who is very popular in the Ruby community who is also you max users yeah and by the way he also uses Ruby mine as far as I know yeah yeah we had some about this before as far as I remember yeah and by the way it's also a think many people use different coding tools for Ruby at the same time so they say when I have to fix something real quick I may use Leah's code or I may use yeah I may use sublime sublime is really yeah it is fast it's super fast I use it sometimes as well and when I when I have a huge project huge product I use vsco because it has some smart functionality they call it intellisense or something I believe and or or they say I use Ruby mine when it's a new project and I have to understand what's going on where is what and yeah it's also a trend it's also interesting people may switch between different tools at the same yeah yeah I also like when I have a quick really really quick fix I don't know I type or something then nicely I also for you because I open it in so I just have this shortcut memory okay let's fix it quickly given my job I most often review existing big existing list applications because that's what our clients come to our can see and they want us to take over or help them with maintaining or extending existing rails applications so they are huge I need to like and to be able to quickly evaluate what's the state of this project so the whole navigation around Ruby mine is just for me a lifesaver like I can do it very very quickly right now and yeah but I rarely start new rails applications so very often actually do start them with just the terminal and themes I still have this part of me right but then after a few days is usually switching to Ruby mine mm-hm I see yeah also I notice is that some developers like I use I really like the Ruby mine git integration I use all the UI for Gibbs I use command K and the diff yeah the diff this is really great and now we also have this partial there was a new thing from few from a few months ago merchants connect special coming yes is really great you shouldn't commit at once there are two three five different completely different things yeah you have really useful in practice so I like this DUI but I know some developers I think a darken see even some people are using to remind for like for the main coding flow but then when they do commit they go to the terminal yeah we have the same thing recently at railsconf we did this thing usability testing mm-hmm it was new experience for us we actually asked our our users to fix a test in Ruby mine and we were recording this and just to understand how people use Ruby mine and it was new experience for us it showed us that most of the people unfortunately use Ruby mine to edit files and if we're lucky enough they also use the navigation things because they were clear but when it comes to running something and when it comes to committing things to get or github then pushing it to github they actually use the terminal or just a standalone application and this is important and this is critical for us in a way because it because of this we understand that we're probably we have issues with the usability or the things and we have to fix that but but we do that in its really no it's really amazing that we know this by now we know this in numbers how many people have this problem because we can because we can analyze it we can accept it and we can fix it mmm-hmm not now not in the next release but one step after another however it what's also interesting by the way if I may just which to this direction just a little bit it's not the same for some other Japanese products so for instance it's different for quite Ram our IDE for Python because mmm jungle community is considered by me I think I considered jungle community is somewhat I mean it's an MVC think right it's yeah and it's a web framework and people may use the same the same approach to programming to web dev and probably somewhat the same for JavaScript developers but Python is bigger it has data scientists it has it's really huge for education and other things same for Java desktop applications that's not only web dev many different things going on and they use our tools differently because they use different approaches they problem differently they think a little bit different okay because it's a little bit of a different sphere it's not about them it's it's about that web development but desktop applications or and many many many other things it's interesting they use so hence they use chaperons tools differently so this is new for us as well we now understand that rubymine should have probably a little bit different it should be designed a little bit different in terms of you interface this is new you okay this is new way of thinking for us we never thought about it before but we have UX specialist now and we work closely to understand how we can fix this yeah this is also interesting like you UX specialist in your companies like providing something totally different and you expecially since yeah many companies like you we are talking about user experience more like developer experience mm-hmm which is also other topic I wanted to like ask you because like typically in the economy we are splitting the companies into like b2c and b2b companies right what while I was working on arcing see I was just a developer but then suddenly I become also a sales person a marketing person I learned a little bit about business and I I think I borrowed this term from somewhere maybe I invented this whole concept of business to developers so B to D just for very specific yeah do you consider you a company like kind of in this area business to developers yeah it's totally B to D I don't know so into yeah you need to really understand developers right yes that's top-notch priority that's number one priority for us I think I can speak on behalf of whole JetBrains but the way I see this I would say that first of all between b2b and b2c it's in a way it's both it's closer to be to be in my opinion because we make tools and developers use it to make their tools so you asked me to be in terms of economics yeah but what do you you say B to D is I like it very much I would say yeah to specify this and to narrow it down to something more specific gerunds and on the whole and Ruby mine in particular is completely about B to D business to developers because this is our top priority for I think for we are completely for all of our products and our programming language that we are trying to develop as well I'm talking about coupling mm-hmm absolutely completely true yeah B to D is something I would say Terrence is about on the whole so now if you like move a bit higher and wider how do you see the overall developers community what are your observations how people switch between languages what are the trends how often they switch languages like is it something that people stay with for my long term time or like this how do you see the whole thing with people using many different languages at the same time is it the big thing or is just a small niche I don't know not much about developers on the whole because I'm more about Ruby developers room yeah and well as for Furby developers I meet people all the time who use both Ruby and well apparently JavaScript of course I wouldn't say that I only meet people who hate each other for instance no it's different it's different and it's good and so I would say also I made people who use so not only JavaScript apart from Ruby but also Python I even meet people who use both Java and Ruby but that's probably normally their managers okay I'm not sure that's why they say but maybe it's you know maybe that's because they used to use IntelliJ IDEA back then way they were developers and then they become managers and they got licenses for them and for their team for Ruby mine for instance or IntelliJ IDEA well the ultimate version also supports it has the Ruby plug-in you can reverse code in Ruby in IntelliJ IDEA as well and maybe because of their thinking they get these licenses and they go to the conferences together with their in together with their employees and yeah and they come to my booth and they say I both called a little bit in Java and Ruby and that's why I got this information like wow there are developers who called both in Java and Ruby anyway back to your question so I would say the biggest things so the biggest burden I see there are some people who use only Ruby well Ruby only Ruby normally is Ruby Ruby on Rails HTML CSS and JavaScript yeah just to be specific but I also need a lot of people who use Python and JavaScript and as for switching according to the data I had this research this questionary I made it and I sent it to some users who stopped using Ruby mine for some reason and ask them why why did you stop use Ruby mine what what went wrong because I wanted to be in the back or at least to get the information was it about the features or the lack of features was it about the lack of performance what was about it what was what went wrong and 50% of them told unfortunately that they stopped using Ruby mine because they switch to a different language okay but that I wouldn't say I wouldn't call this a huge trend but there is a part of developers who do switch from Ruby coordinates so we're talking about 50% of the people who responded to your survey yes stopped using the Subspace for exactly yeah okay it's a small audience yeah just to be exactly it's a small audience I didn't want to keep the impression amazing all the doors and visitors and trends and you know we are not really we are no longer competing with Python for example like in the whole your notes – but there are too many directions in Python it's it's natural it's okay we'll see we'll see where it goes well and Ruby 3×3 right yeah and we'll see that soon and we'll see where we where it goes Ruby mine is also waiting for that by the way the gradual typing we're really up for there all ears in that direction anyways so yeah so there are trends of some trends that we see that people move from Ruby to Python and JavaScript yes and they some of them use all three things many Ruby programmers know that I will ask this question do you see that Friends of Ruby people switching to elixir are you aware of yes yes not not switching to a lexer no no no but I guess because of the way elixir looks like in terms of the syntax yes yeah it's almost the same and part of our audience actually asked us to do something about Alex here that's it's public we have this bug tracker it's you tracked on chef Prince calm and there is slush Ruby's life issues so you can see all the cars yeah that's really nice as you by the way because I watch this progress oh yeah that's cool that's cool and that's very important for us that's how we process the data from our users to understand what's going on yes every day it's very transparent yes it's completely public and I don't vote thing called Alex you once you know yeah I see so but there is a ticket there is that says hey do something with Alex of support at support for Alex sir and there is a third-party plugin developed for IntelliJ in Ruby mine so it exists you can install the plug-in Africa I've tried it when I was trying to dig here some time ago maybe yeah yeah I remember I remember cell phone melted mm-hmm so no official support yet it's there on the tracker but so these just yeah yeah just to clarify this there are currently no trans dat officials Alex Erie and yeah well but we are we keep an eye on it and it's it really easy to keep an eye because if it's really necessary people will come and use caps lock in our chat for instance or I mean I keep an eye on it and I will know when it's when it's time to do something about it but unfortunately we don't have any resources right now to do that as well that's the problem with Alex you're like some people who know me they I've recorded a controversial video like three years ago I am now switching to Alex very controversial because I was a big trend like three years ago two years ago and I really like Alex here for the technical kind of arguments because it has much better way of concurrency built in Airlines on a fantastic virtual machine I mean the airline can become a virtual machine the whole idea of processes I really like it but now now the business perspective the economic perspective I just don't see a lecture as a viable market that's something that I'm worried about and but I do see a trend that many smart Ruby programmers either switched completely to elixir or they like partially switched so they do Ruby over day and elixir in the night and this bothers me a little bit of their decision and it's fine but it bothers me because what I see they are doing mostly it's like they are renting the missing Ruby libraries so they're huge intelligence and they're huge potential intellectual capabilities are used now by just Porton stuff and obviously they are doing there a lot of new stuff and there are some interesting ideas of and also borrowing from the electric community but I just I'm just worried that you know we're losing the human human potential for Alex here and if it if it's for a good cause at least you will suddenly become I don't know the language number five in the world or something that that's great I'm just worried that this will not happen I see this thing as a waste see enough rationale yeah see like the whole Ruby Revolution when started in 2004 with rails it was just much bigger reason to switch I was one of the people switching from Java to Ruby and I've never really looked back and elixir if elixir started in 2004 that would be a least revolution but now the market is different and if you look at certain film market perspective you're always going to know which target you are actually like who is your target and where do you want to grab the market from and the links you definitely is targeting Ruby even if they're not aware of this they are doing this but Ruby's like too small to be like good source it's just my hoping I didn't mean to offend any elixir developers who are watching this but just yeah I can second there I mean that's that's the inside eager as a technical person in the beginning right in the inputs to this black box called Alex here and I'm as a marketing person can tell you who knows the market data from the outputs or from the market side for now there are not enough production I mean there is not enough businesses that use Alex in production and unfortunately or fortunately I don't know that's just data that I get so so yeah I did this actually supports your opinion I think in a way that it's not that huge at least of yeah we'll see where it goes well here it goes alright so maybe just for the last topic who we both you're the host I I was a speaker and unattended at the conference so we've had two days of fantastic talks and you know great congrats to the organization team and everyone who was involved in the photo sponsors it was a great conference and I appreciate it also as a conference organizer so I organized what so far be and I I really it was one of the best experiences I've had in the last year so thinking as a conference venue the agenda was actually the talks were really advanced that's what I'm I usually worry because I'm happy that Ruby community gets bigger and bigger and we need those talks for the junior people me as a senior developer I don't know sometimes I just I'm just not that interested so he was actually great I realized some many of the talks here and the level was really high and we also had the Ruby contributor talking about the Ruby future and we've heard some really good information about the progress happening they also put relieve a lot of work what what's your opinion and about the conference like what did you learn from the conference so first of all it was a very good experience for me yes I I hosted this for the first time and it's the it's the first conference we host we we hosted chat brains in our new office we were really scared it was scary a little bit because we didn't know how it will be what it will be like and but luckily everything went run great almost everything went great we have plus one to what you said about the technical talks I'm not at that technical and not an advanced ruby developer I'm not a ruby developer at all but yeah it was part of the plan actually many things – he wants a lot of the main organizer yeah yes and yeah in it started I think the whole thing started way back like three years ago maybe when they say the Ruby community started to get bigger thanks to Ivana yeah and we started Houston small meetups at Jeffrey's for Ruby for the Ruby community back in the smaller office and I was become it has become bigger and bigger and now we have three it went international and yeah we had people from Poland and the USA yes Japan and great speakers very very well-known in terms of very well-known in the Ruby community and great talks very technical people loved it they actually told me that so that's how I know it they they told me yes they were very technical for advanced people that's very important and in terms of the organization many thanks to my great colleagues who made these technical things work I would there is no chance I would do that without the support of my colleagues it was amazing for me to learn that it was actually the first conference in this venue oh yeah and there was like everything was working and as a speaker I always have this stressful situation where oh I cannot plug in my laptop or something there's something wrong with the sound and you know then you're doing your talk and suddenly things stop working and here I didn't notice like any any problem well thank you yeah that was important for us we had this problem before last year there was a fee for me conference and we had all set of these problems unfortunately yes but yeah but we we worked on our mistakes luckily yes so great experience yeah and you also had a great talk thank you very much thank you for the dignity yeah and so what else what else to say videos will be available right so actually the trimming is already available oh yes there are something new it's not very often that you can watch the conference life when it's happening so for me it was like another boost why not because I'm as a speaker I know that I'm worth and only by the how many people whether 326 so it's not only them it's also people somewhere they're online and actually my wife my wife was watching this oh it was really nice great yeah we didn't promote it well enough I think maybe we did I'm not sure but yes it was Green casted luckily we have enough technical equipment to do that right inside the room this near my hole in the hole so that's why we did it yeah and it was amazing I just for now I don't understand this I am still a little bit fuzzy I just still don't understand how went what I did I cannot analyze it just ended yesterday and I'm still yeah it's very pretty it's they also liked was because it was in a way very similar to the conference I'm organising so I I enjoy it it's being similar like the technical level but also the agenda was organized that there was like half an hour more or less for the talk some minutes for questions and there was like after every talk we could have at least 15 minutes break usually and there was a really nice hall with snacks with food with drinks coffee and so on so I was great and this gave me as a speaker as well as an opportunity to talk like to be available to other people to talk to me there was enough space to people I know showing me their code on the table actually I've had three different groups of people showing me some code all of them using gel brains showing me some big bases and they were so people know me that I'm trying to promote domain-driven design even sourcing and CQRS in rarest world which is very unique so they were like a cake can you look at this did we do it well or not I was helping someone to pick some some smaller issues so actually this made me think and probably this is my like last topic and how but it's it's related to the conference's like the role of sponsors and booths at the conferences as an organizer I have to admit I was always against having booths at the conference because it's always about recruitment and I didn't like a part but obviously does need it but this conference is at this conference I realized that I want to have an artistic booth somewhere a conference because that's more explicit way of saying to the participants hey come to us we are not recruiting really bad I can help you decide whether the ID or CRS is a good fit for your application so maybe I can do some free consultations for example that will be useful for the people so it's actually the first conference where I realize that it might be you know very very useful oh yeah and how do you see this because you are often the person behind the booth now you are the organizer also how do you see this aspect probably I'm a little bit biased okay because I'm a marketing person and sponsors big being a sponsor sponsoring events as a prince employee is very important for me because it allows me to show the live demo and show all the complex things that we have in Ruby mine and it's very important and you mentioned this allows people to understand that's very important this allows people to understand whether the needs and they they need this product yeah this is Roger whatever or not this is this is the priority for me so it's not like marketing FMCG is about by this thing by this bottle of coke by this or that smoke don't smoke whatever in ninety days doesn't work luckily in bitter be it's different it'd be totally different and you should be translating the information so that people understand what this is about because there's too much information you have to show people what this is and then they can decide for themselves whether they need it or not so that's why being president booths is very important for me so we do not do by the way that much of hiring at the booth but yeah many companies do many companies do that's the most popular thing of sponsored sponsorships people we are higher and we're promoting our product which is basically a promotion as well but that's one that's very important and as so because of this because this is very important as an organizer I didn't have any as a call organizer I didn't have anything I'm really not against having any sponsors that's very important I would say the most important thing is that to two things well the sponsors we had that was apart from Sharon's that was cooked at Hotel Efron is also huge in Russia and CIS and other sponsors as well they are actually part of the ecosystem and cookpot is actually part of the Ruby ecosystem in a way they have from the Ruby core so I consider them all inside so yeah they spend money they they do promote their goods at the conferences but they're also it's not like they're in work they are inside the community and they support they really do the invests in this conferences so that people get bigger many people from this come I mean not from Cooke bad but people from tap top tell that work for top tail or and also at the conference and many other businesses send their people to this conference so that they can listen and become better developers that's very important that's also part thanks to our response to storm really for this never against this what I'm against what I'm really against doing pushing things in a stupid way that's that's bad marketing I used to do it before jetbrains in other companies it doesn't work so I think developers are like very very much against pushing and the end of marketing or sales like even sending an email sometimes it's like – yes too much for pushing for many of us that's true you have to be very you know what's the word I didn't know it's this this way this communication you can break it it's fragile so you have to be very serious about the communication you're trying to do the way you do it don't don't push it but as for the rest it's totally fine sponsors species are also fine for me because it's it's not about a sponsor pitch it's about the message you can again so as for that as for the sponsors I'm really for this talks I also always against those but here when I looked at budget are making fun of okay I know I didn't want to bore you and so on it was like very very aware of the situation yes they're very experienced people they know they're also developers yeah yes all right there Tillman thanks also great killers conversation I hope you know our listeners and Watchers will appreciate it so thanks for your time yeah and good luck with Ruby minor a big thank you very much good luck with Arkin C and D D D and eventsource in and the rest [Laughter]

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